I've been trying to figure out how I feel about this whole gay marriage thing. I realize my last post on the topic -- whether or not the LGBT community merits "civil rights" -- was, at best, murky. The reason why it was murky was because I'm still trying to work this whole thing out in my mind. Like I said in class, my worst fault is that I can see both sides of the issue. It would be a lot easier to be like Jill and Amanda or ZZ Nuge and Trevor and be completely set about the issue. But, I'm not. So, I continue to labor through this tough issue.
I do think I have made a breakthrough, though. I no longer have a pit in my stomach when I think about the balance between preserving traditional marriage and awarding a very vocal minority group civil rights when I don't think they even qualify for them.
My biggest concern about this issue really has nothing to do with defining marriage or figuring out the biological make-up of a homosexual's brain and/or psyche. My biggest concern is all about tolerance.
I have been greatly troubled by the aggressive animosity directed towards religious people by the opponents to Proposition 8. Protestors often carry signs that read, "Say No to H8" or "Proposition 8 is All about Hate." The notion that I and other religious people "hate" homosexuals is tremendously offensive and just untrue. My support of Proposition 8 has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about the LGBT community. I know I certainly do not hate them. They have their freedom to choose their lifestyle just as I do. What bothers me is that opponents to Proposition 8 think that those who are supportive of it are bigots and hate-mongers. That's like comparing an orange to a Buick -- they're not even in the same ballpark.
My support on 8 absolutely has to do with my very personal belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. A healthy family where mother and father are co-equals in the home and provide a loving and nurturing environment for their children is quite literally the fabric of our society. Mother has certain talents, abilities, and natural roles that fathers simply do not have; and fathers have complimentary talents, abilities, and natural roles that mothers don't have.
For those of you who think I'm a bigot and a hypocrite, that's your problem. I know I'm not. There is zero hate in my heart towards anyone who is gay because they are gay. I gotta say, though, this whole religion-bashing thing doesn't win them any points. It's time for tolerance to go both ways.
18 comments:
This doesn't sound at all tolerant to me. It sounds like bull. Denying a group of individuals a certain right that, should be a natural born right of choice, sounds pretty intolerant to me.
How is standing up for what I and the majority of Californians, Arizonans, and Floridians believe in intolerant? If I were doing it out of hate, then you would have an argument. But, I'm not. So you don't. I'm doing it because of my belief about the sanctity of marriage being between a man and a woman. That's it.
Just because I feel that all individuals should have the right to choose whom they marry regardless of their sexual orientation doesn’t mean that I am trying to question or demean the sanctity of a marriage between a man and a woman. Only you and your wife know how precious your marriage is regardless of what laws lay in place, why do you care so much on how others perceive this love or how they might see if of less? Out of this love you have the right and ability to profess this and marry, but some do not. I believe that this is the love that we should care about not the sexual orientation end of things. It is a very beautiful thing and I am very bless to have this right but I feel for those who do not.
I feel that this whole marriage thing has become this right that is reserved for the elite, superior way to be or to live your life.
Matt- I just want to make sure I'm clear because you totally called me out by name in this post. *laugh* I also want to make sure I'm not putting out something I don't intend to.
Are you calling those of us in class intolerant or are you talking about people who are attacking the church in general?
I agree with Priscilla here. Everyone should have a right to marry regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone can believe whatever it is that they want, like in your case you believe that “Marriage is/should be between a man and a woman only,” but the law should let everyone have equal opportunity to do the same thing if they wish to. Maybe we will get to this point one day in the future, just like we did with letting the women vote and have jobs. People should not be so against equal opportunities like they are. It creates hard feelings amongst us and that is not what we should be striving for.
Also, another point. I take mild offense at the idea that I don't see both sides of the issue just because I feel passionately one way about it. This tends to shock the crap out of people (I've actually got the bug-eyed, jaw dropped expression), but I'm LDS. I was married in the Temple.
...and the biggest shocker of all?! I converted as an adult! I took the lessons and prayed and did all of the things that a person who converts is supposed to do. I respect the Church as a whole, and I respect their authority to make decisions for their group and for those that they have influence under.
I'll admit, I haven't been active lately (this admission isn't shocking, I'm sure), but I believe in the gospel of the church. (I'll end it here, so the blog doesn't turn into a Testimony meeting. :P)
I understand where they're coming from, but in the end, I disagree- just like you ultimately do. This doesn't mean you're only seeing one side- it means you weighed all possible options and made a decision for what worked for you. I did the same thing, and just because we ended up on opposite sides of the line doesn't mean that either one of us is any less educated than the other.
...I just realized I misread Matt's post. *laugh* Whoops. Well, there's my declaration of religion and everything, since I don't see how to delete it.
Sorry everyone. I flew off the handle. It's late and my even crazier, even liberal-er, even more feminist husband was ranting about something else. Blame him.
I am calling those who think the following intolerant and/or misinformed:
A) That the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints directly funded the campaign to help Proposition 8 pass. That simply did not happen.
B) That members of the LDS Church are bigoted because they voted for Proposition 8. Who is to say why someone votes for something? If I were in CA and had the right to vote in their elections, I would have voted for Prop 8 because of my support for traditional marriage, not because I hate gays. I don't. But, it sure seems like they hate me.
This whole issue reminds me a lot of the whole Dixie Chicks fiasco of a few years back. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, the lead singer from the band while traveling in Germany said that she was ashamed to be from the same state (Texas) as our president. That comment sent shockwaves through the country music community, which is traditionally conservative.
Radio stations wouldn't play their songs, other country artists were calling her a traitor, etc. The band couldn't sell tickets to concerts in the States and had to cancel several shows, which ended up costing them millions of dollars in revenue.
She then retaliated by writing a song called "Not Ready to Make Nice." And, again, many country music fans simply eliminated the Dixie Chicks from their music library.
The lead singer was expressing her opinion, which was her right. But, then she became incredibly offended when people disagreed with her. So, she wrote a protest song about it. Then, more of her fans deserted her again while some anti-Bushies purchased the album by the dozens.
What I don't get is how some people expect to have the right to free speech and demand that others listen to them. Then, when the other people respond opposite to their points of view, they get offended, pout, protest outside LDS temples and Christian churches, shoot out church windows, and vilify people who were expressing their opinions. So, I say again, it's time for tolerance to go both ways.
Am I intolerant of gay and lesbians? Hell no! I think they should be able do whatever they want within the walls of their own home and be in whatever communities and cultures they choose to be in.
But, am I against changing the definition of the building block of successful, healthy societies - the family - headed by a father and a mother? You bet.
If you think that makes me intolerant, maybe you should rethink your definition of intolerant.
I agree with Priscilla and froggieflip on this one when they say that "everyone should have a right to marry regardless of their sexual orientation". I just don't understand why gay marriage is such a bad thing. People can't tell heterosexuals who they can and can't marry, should why should we be able to tell homosexuals that they can't marry someone that they love unconditionally. Why do we let it bug us so bad to see two homosexuals together, if you don't like it, dont look!
This is a very big issue for me. I believe that a "traditional" marriage is a lame excuse for intolerance. The way I see it is a marriage is between 2 people and their God and if anyone can weaken that or make it mean less then they did not have a true marriage to begin with.
Then as far as this they can't have marriage but they can have a civil union sounds a bit like "seperate but equal" and that worked out so well for America before.
I agree with matt. One of my best friends is gay and is quite upset with the LDS Church and the state of California because of proposition 8 passing. I talked to my dad about it because at first i thought it was a little messed up that it did pass and that the church gave money in support of it and even if the church did directly fund it to pass it is because they believe in traditional marriage where the mother has certain things to provide for her children that the father doesnt and that the father has certain things to provide for his children that the mother doesnt. I think that there is a good point made where matt said tolerance should go both ways. Protesting and being pissed off about it isnt going to change the fact that it is a law and is going to be a law for quite some time. Instead try and figure out ways to get the law to change in favor of the LGBT community.
I'm a little disturbed by your comment Mr Bunker
"I would have voted for Prop 8 because of my support for traditional marriage, not because I hate gays. I don't. But, it sure seems like they hate me."
Where are you getting that gays hate you? This completely sounds barbaric. Is it hateful to want to have the same rights as you? If anything the gay community is envious of your ability to profess the love that you & your wife share with the blessing of marriage & all that it entails.
I know that the purpose of blogging is to open up and express yourself and hope others see different perspectives or in your words "get heated up" but I feel this has gone too far. Our last few postings have been on this subject - I understand that this is the main topics of the current events, but what about other topics like stem cell research, the war in Iraq, our new african american elect president??
Just a thought.. have any of you thought this is a subject that affects some people more than others and that passing judgement on their lives does more than just generate a heated healthy debate on this subject.
People are entitled to their opinions, beliefs and way of life. People are passionate about this issue because they believe so strongly one way or the other. People are angry at religious groups over Prop 8, but they are not trying to ban any of them from marrying - even though they don’t believe in their lifestyles.
I generally don’t have a lot to say about issues because I try to look at it from every perspective and feel that different sides have good arguments. This issue doesn’t affect me either way. The reason I get so fired up about it is because I feel that I can look at it objectively and though I’ve tried, I can not find a good fair argument to keep gay people from marrying each other. I don’t see how anyone can argue it except with quotes from the bible and teachings from their church. I’m not trying to say these aren’t important things – they are - very important, but we don’t all believe in the same scripture and I shouldn’t have to believe in your religion, just as you shouldn’t have to believe in mine. That’s why this country is so great.
Again, I’m not gay and don't have a sibling or a good friend who is gay, but I just don’t see how you can say that it’s not discrimination to deny someone the choice of who they will marry. With so many other dangerous, sad, and critical issues out there I am so frustrated that people are using all this energy to keep others down. Why are people so determined to ban same-sex marriage?
Let's looks at some of the arguments against same-sex marriage:
1. "It's ruining the sanctity of marriage”. - Interesting that there really are no pre-requisites for getting married EXCEPT that you be a heterosexual couple. Death row inmates can marry. Child molesters can marry. Sixteen year-old children can marry (with consent of their parents). You can order a bride or groom online and marry them. You can marry and divorce as often as you like, but I couldn't marry the love of my life whom I've been faithful to always because she is a woman. Doesn’t this seem a little ridiculous? What sanctity??
2. It will hurt our children. Really? Let’s examine this big argument: “Mommy, can a prince really marry a prince?” Why is it so hard to say, Sure, but we don’t believe in that lifestyle and the Bible teaches us that it’s wrong. I guarantee that will not be the most difficult question you child will ask you. How about these: “Mommy, where do babies come from?” “Mommy, did we really come from Apes?” “Mommy, should I smoke cigarettes like Uncle Mike?” “Mommy, should I kill people like they do in the bible?” People act like they can't teach their children right & wrong if the law changes.
3. It’s not natural. Nature is flawed. Some men were born to love men and some women to love women and some turtles have 3 heads and some babies are born with no hands... People are crippled and handicapped and what? Should we deny them? What if I’m born a hermaphrodite? Can I not marry? Some people are born that way and that is a fact!
Stopping gays from getting married doesn't stop them from being gay. If it turns out that your son is gay, would it be better for him to live alone without love? Or live with a partner he can never marry? Or perhaps be able to be as happy as one can be and have the same opportunity to marry and spend the rest of his life with the one he loves?
Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean that you have to believe in it, and just because you believe in it, doesn’t mean that it has to be legal.
The only question here should be, “Are we discriminating against people?” Live your life the way you should according to your beliefs, but please don’t keep others from doing the same.
Wow, b.recek said it all.
Damn, I don't get it! I think I will go with Michael Savage here and say that the Liberals are suffering from a mental disorder. I don't like calling names because it just gets people heated up, and it really does nothing for any argument, but I can't help it here. Lib's don't get it! If you are Liberal and reading this, you are sheep following the sheepshit Liberal herd. Shit stinks too by the way, why do you keep your noses in that stinky ass herd? Eww. I pulled mine out a long time ago and took a good shower, blowed my nose and everything. You guys just go with the liberal propaganda and follow like sheep! You have no argument if you want to call me a sheep, because I would call myself a constitutionalist, not a republican listening to all the Bush propaganda, so don't try. Stop wallowing in Shit, and figure it out! Oh, and Human's shit stinks too, so the homo way aint too appetizing either. They can do that in their house, that doesn't bother me. But, men have a weenie, women have the other end. It works. 2 weenies, or 2 bumholes doesn't. It would hurt the fabric of society to legalize their marrying. We are created to survive as a human species, and procreate. Sorry for my light mindedness, but I have wanted to say it all semester. You guys can try and justify it all day long, but it will always be wrong. I am disgusted, probably like you are after reading this.
ZZ Top and Ted Nugent is where it's at!
ZZ Nuge thanks so much for that comment.. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. And as far as my comment goes towards what you say is I agree with all of it..
ZZ Nuge - I can tell you are as frusterated with this debate on your end as I am on my end and we will never agree. We have beat this issue to death, but I did want to address one of your points. I'm not following any herd. It has nothing to do with propoganda or what's "hip" or "cool" and everything that I have written and everything that I feel comes from my own mind. I am frusterated because I have searched facts and reason and even my own soul trying to find a good reason - a good argument against gay marriage and I can't find one because we are talking about OTHER people's rights. It has nothing to do with anything except being fair & accepting. On a personal level, I can tell you that I could witness a gay marriage in front of God and all and feel good about it in my heart. If God will judge then God will judge, but it's not my place to do so.
I personally feel that proposition 8 was needed because i do not agree with gay's getting married, in my opinion god created adam and eve not adam and steve. LOL and quite frankly I don't care who I offend because I am not against gay's, although it is not right and is absolutely disgusting, I still can not get over the fact that they have no reason to get married.
In today's society straight couples live together all the time without marriage, and they have reasons to be married. But why can't gay people just be happy that they are allowed to live together and share each other's company? What reason is there really that they need to be married for when they can't have children or a real family? that is one of the main things that marriage is for, is creating a family.
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