Homosexuality, in my opinion, does not pass the civil liberty test. Although I am good friends with several people who were clearly gay since birth, I am still extremely skeptical about the general consensus that all homosexuals are born gay. Because one of my college roommates and best friends is gay, I really have given a lot of thought. (I even examined my own sexuality to make sure I was straight. I am.)
What I have found is that not all homosexuals choose to be gay and not all homosexuals are born gay. That to me is the biggest issue at stake here. When something cannot be empirically proven, such as race, a commitment to a religious group, or the ability to make decisions for yourself, then it really has no business rising to the level of a civil liberty. And, if it cannot be qualified as a civil liberty, then how can we consider affording that group of people civil rights protected by the Constitution?
Therefore, banning same-sex marriage is the right thing. Homosexuality and its corresponding cultures are not inherent in ALL homosexuals.
It is critical, however, to never be guilty of hate, homophobia, religious bigotry, racism, and their many ugly cousins. We must accept each other as individuals that contribute to a great whole.
One more thing...I know tonight's discussion got heated. Thank goodness. If it didn't I'd be really worried that you weren't paying attention.
I would like to thank you all for your opinions. I respect them and I respect your right to have them, even if we disagree.
That being said, I apologize if any of you felt that I didn't respect your opinions. That will never happen. You may think that I don't respect your views. Not so. It's just that I think your views are wrong and mine are right. But, I still respect your views.
That's how the political world works. You will be offended from time to time. Sometimes you'll even get so pissed off and that you'll want to walk out or better yet, punch your opponent in the nose. Resist that urge. It only gets you in trouble.
Honest and open debate is the only way to go -- challenging your own beliefs to see if you still believe that way. If you do, good for you. Keep on fighting that fight. If you change your mind, great. You then can go a different way.
What do you all think about Californians' decision to ban same-sex marriage?
25 comments:
This issue is a really hard one for me. Really hard. I have such mixed feelings. First off I think that if all races and genders have been given equal rights i think gays should be given those same rights as well.
Although I personally do not support it and do not think God would have people born gay, I feel its a persons preferance and if thats the way they choose to be i think it should be supported under the consitution. They aren't hurting anyone and don't we all have the freedom to express ourselves the way we choose? Why should they be any different?
Well here we go this is what I think I am in total support of the Californians banning same sex marriage. I think most gay people all fall into the category of race or gender so I just dont think gay rights or marriage is a civil liberty. As far as the argument of whether your born gay or its a choice, I am with Professor Bunker in that I think some cases its a choice and some other cases you are born with it. I have a friend that lives in Las Vegas and when I went to Dixie State he was there with me, one day we got to talking about how he knew he was gay, and he said, "Well Trevor to be honest I wasn't always gay but I've had sex with alot of different people and I've just decided that I enjoy having sex with men more, so this is WHY I CHOOSE to be gay."
I am very glad they banned same sex marriage just for the fact that I disagree with it. Marriage is a sacred thing between a man and a woman.
Once again, I do agree with Professor Bunker in the fact that we should not be homophobic or have hatred towards someone because they are different. I respect gay people in every way I can and I have befriended few.
Have a good day!
So, let me make sure I am understanding your post correctly. You believe that some people are born gay, and some people make that choice on their own volition. So because others have (in your opinion) chosen to be gay, you would elect to deny the rights of others within whom their sexuality is inherent? But wait, I thought that those whose traits were inherent should be protected by civil liberties. How does that work? So what if I were not born protestant, but chose to convert, do I not get the same protection under the constitution from persecution? Faulty logic as far as I'm concerned.
I seem to remember a class discussion in which Trevor declared he would kill or beat the gay out of any child of his for being gay. I am confused to read his above blog in which he implores us to not hate or be homophobic. Perhaps the gay beating would be out of love...in which case, I totally get it.
Hey Jill I'm sure glad you cant take a joke. When I said I would beat the gay out of my child I was kidding, but also when I said that I was agreeing with what Zac said. And your right Jill you shouldn't be homophobic I am certainly happy you actually listen to anything the conservatives say. Anytime I look over at you when a conservative is speaking you just roll your eyes and give stupid looks on your face. Good Job for actually listening. :)
and being protestant converting to another religion is alot different then being straight and deciding hey guess what I wanna be gay now.
Oh but there is so much truth spoken in jest. You can't hide disdain by adding a chuckle to the end of such a, dare I say, hateful comment. You couldn't be any more mistaken, I hear you loud and clear.
This is the problem as I see it. It seems to folks like Trevor that it's ok to speak out against the rights of a U.S. citizen if you add an obligatory statement about how we shouldn't be homophobic or disrespectful. Problem is, this proposition couldn't be construed as anything but homophobic and blatantly disrespectful; no matter how many gay friends the writers have.
I will agree to you that my comment was disrespectful but I will have to disagree with you in that it was homophobic. But Jillian I have one question for you? Have you ever made fun of someone because they were over weight, weird, just a little different? Well if you have then guess what you've done exactly what I did. Or does a fat person not get the equal rights as a gay person should get?
I take issue with the last sentence in the first paragraph; that to receive civil rights, you must prove that you were "born that way or a member of that culture."
As people might remember from the first day of class, I'm studying to be a sign language interpeter, and am learning a lot about Deaf culture. I liken this situation to that group. There are people who were born deaf, and there are people who became deaf later in life due to a disorder or disease. There are people who are "culturally Deaf" (note the "big D" here) who both have lost their hearing AND identify with Deaf culture and there are people who do not- who live in a hearing world, do not use American Sign Language (or another signed language), tend to use hearing aids, etc. To even muddy the water here, there are people who lose their hearing due to something they did, such as acting recklessly or not using hearing protection or whatever.
So, in this example, are the only people who deserve "civil rights" (and I'm not positive what we're talking about here. Do Matt and Trevor think their friends' employers should be able to fire them at will simply because they are gay? What about being denied housing?) those who were born deaf and are culturally Deaf? My sign language teacher, who was born deaf and lives in a vibrant Deaf community should be allowed to be married, but my coworker who uses a cochlear implant and never uses sign who became deaf later in life should not? Does that make any sense whatsoever? Or, in this example, is the only person from these gropu who is denied civil rights the person that used a jackhammer or fired an automatic rifle without hearing protection?
If that's the case, would it be okay for the federal government to say that if you belong to a certain religious group, you cannot be married? After all, you chose to be that way. Is it fair for the government to say that if you want to enjoy the same civil liberties as everyone else, you must abandon who you are? As for the comment that the comparison to religion and gay is totally absurd, another question: which are you saying is harder, becoming a protestant or becoming gay? Which would be easier for you to become, and why do you think your answer is outrageously different than anyone elses?
As for the choice v. no choice, for me, it doesn't matter, but I think that might be the fundamental difference here. It sounds like people who are against gay marriage are willing to deny rights to an entire group of people on the possibility that some people may not "deserve" them. I'm not willing to do that.
Oh, and Trevor: I might have made fun of someone because they were a little weird, but I never said I would "kill or beat the weird out of them", nor do I advocate legislation barring weird people civil rights. Also, please show me where fat or weird people can't get married or could be fired or kicked out of their homes, and then your "equal rights" question would be relevant in this situation.
LOL... Ladies, especially Jillian, Trevor is not going to beat the gayness out of his kid! He will try to lead his kid the other way, but if his kid becomes gay, I am sure he will love his kid without putting conditions on that love.
If I was living in California, I would have been beating doors to support Prop 8, handing out literature and such. I cannot say how glad I am it passed. I will not support that lifestyle of homosexuality. People may say, "get educated about homosexuality". I would say get educated on how gross they error in their ways.
It is not natural. The plumbing ain't right. A Man and a Woman naturally have sex, 2 dudes or 2 chiks is not natural sex, use your imagination, born that way or not. It is not a civil right. But, I do understand the other side of the story. I just don't agree with it.
Thank you ZZ nudge.. of course I wouldn't beat the gay out of my child. I would however disagree with my child's lifestyle. But yes I would love him unconditionally
Trevor- Just a bit of feedback, which you can choose to take or leave. A lot of your language in class and on the blog is kind of aggressive, so I (and it sounds like Jill, but I won't pretend I speak for her) tend to take you at face value about it. You've also said you support taking people out and shooting them as soon as they're found guilty of a crime that would warrant the death penalty. Was that a joke too? How are we supposed to know the difference?
Definition of inherent (adjective)
intrinsic; existing as a natural and integral part; natural; inborn.
I do believe that we each are born with the natural desire to be loved and accepted for who we are. I also believe that sexual feelings and desire is part of that desire to be loved and find acceptance and if that includes a sexual preference for the same sex or the opposite sex, I believe it is our inherent right to choose. When we start dictating what kind of sexual preference is acceptable we just keep going backwards in our thinking. What goes on in the bedroom should not be litigated. What goes on in the bedroom between adults is a civil right in my opinion. And if two adults want to commit to each other and have their union legally recognized I believe this is also a civil right.
I appreciate the dialogue here and the willingness to share opposing views. Obviously it is an emotional issue. Whenever someone is different than the majority it causes people to feel uncomfortable. I feel strongly about the right to love whomever you choose and the intimacy that they share is not something that should be dictated by others. Nor should it limit their rights to the benefits of a legal union.
Amanda, yes I was very much joking about beating the gayness out of my child. If you cant tell when a joke is said then I dont know what to tell you. As far as the death penalty goes no I wasn't joking about that at all. I am a true believer in the fact that if someone has committed a crime that is punishable by death then yes I for sure think that instead of our tax dollars paying for them to live happily in prison or wasting space in the prisons. I dont think we should waste the time to take them out back and shoot them, or take them downstairs and put a needle in their arm. Do what the Nike ads say "Just do it." :)
It safe to assume that Trevors main concern is what happens sexually between two partners. As long as what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom is consentual, it's none of your buiness. So keep you nose out of my sexual choices.
I have strong feelings about this subject i feel that it is a persons right noone has the right to say what you can and can't do. I'm not gonna go around saying you can't do this you can't do that it just creates drama and its a never ending argument. Really whats the problem with someone wanting to be gay why should anyone care its not affecting there life and if it is then start living your life and get out of other peoples.
Hey priscilla,
you can do whatever you want in the privacy of your own bedroom and i wont give a darn. Your wrong to say I care about that. And believe me my nose is very much out of your sexual choices.
Trevor- I get what you're saying, and like I said before, you can choose to take what I'm saying as feedback (and nothing more, I'm really not trying to be judgemental or whatever here), but I don't know you from any other guy on the street just like you don't know me very well. If you did, you would know that my sense of humor tends to run to the dark and bitingly sarcastic. I'll believe you when you say that you were joking about beating your son, but believe me when I say I can tell when jokes are told.
Because I don't know you very well, I don't know when you're kidding, and when a lot what I've heard you say has been at least slightly aggressive, I'm not sure how I was supposed to know that was a joke. People DO beat their children for being gay. People DO kill others for being gay. It's not an absurd thought, and it's not that I think so little of you that I would automatically assume you would do that, but I also don't know you well enough to be able tell when one outrageous statement is a joke but another statement I think is equally outrageous isn't.
Just a clarification- I meant "I can tell when jokes are told" in general. I get that I might have misunderstood Trevor at that time.
“ 'Well Trevor to be honest I wasn't always gay but I've had sex with a lot of different people and I've just decided that I enjoy having sex with men more, so this is WHY I CHOOSE to be gay.' I am very glad they banned same sex marriage just for the fact that I disagree with it.”
Sound like you care quite a bit actually.
Haha! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees right through Trevor! Trevor, all you have done in this class is say outrageous comments, and then contradict yourself. You should just stop while you're ahead...please. And the comment about making fun of fat people? All I can say to that is WTF!!!
Jill I couldn't agree with you more.
Jill and Priscilla I am sure glad you two can "see" right through me, but the best part of this class is I dont have to stop when I am behind or ahead or whatever. Priscilla I dont care what you do in the privacy of your bedroom that comment I made was strictly to show that there are cases when people choose to be gay. But hey you two can take what I say however the heck you want I dont really care. But I am not going to stop speaking my mind. Sorry I've hurt your feelings that my opinions oppose yours. Like I said take me however you want I dont really give a dang how you two (Priscilla and Jill) feel about me. You can hate me, dislike me, tell me I am "uneducated" and I'll just sit here and read your comments and laugh. HAHAHAHA
I gotta say that this has been blown completely out of proportion and I have to put in my 2 cents because apparently my blog did not post last week.
First of all Jill, Priscilla, and Amanda, you should really get your facts straight before accusing people about things, because it was me that said I would beat the gay out of my child and it was said in jest because I had just gotten done explaining how I feel about gays (that I do not agree with them and never will, but I will respect them and treat them fairly) when someone said they hope my son is born gay, and yes, I did just have a son so that comment was real nice, and then they asked what I would do if he was, in which kind I responded in jest because I didn't feel like repeating myself. Get your facts straight.
Also I'll respond (again in Trevor's defense) about the death penalty. I have always believed in it and I always will, if you have done something that warrants the death sentence you deserve to die after your proper appeal course has been run. No waiting 20 years just get the sentence over with after the final appeal has been denied. On that note, use a rope, it's re-usable and cost effective, quit wasting my tax dollars!
LOL Trevor is just doing this to play with you girls! He is a Psyche gamer, he plays with your psyche! And he loves it! When he reads your posts, I just visualize him laughing. You try to pin crap on him, and see right through him, but you are just trying to make yourself look smart by saying that. Actually Trrevor is a lot of fun to hang with, and I enjoy his company. He is kindof a pimp really. HAHA
HAHA.. THanks ZZ Nuge, This is true what you say, I do laugh when I read these girls posts. ZZ nuge lets just let these girls think they are all high and mighty and smarter than you and I. We both know that they are wrong, but we can still laugh at them. And I enjoy your company as well.
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